All Sin is Equal: Even Homosexuality.

Another in a long line of responses to a yahoo group.
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I definitely promote the all sins are equal standpoint. I've heard the "sin that leads to death" argument before and its very compelling, but I just can't read it that way and have it fit in with my understanding of God.

You certainly don't have to agree with me, but this is how I read that. If the only way to live eternally was to get to New York City, and my friend gets on a flight for Dallas TX, and I get on one bound for LA. neither of us is doing what we need to in order to get there. Lets say that my friends plane crashes and he dies in Oklahoma. Can we say that he was a better man than I? He got a lot closer to New York than I did. But I'm still alive to try again. Which of us is better off?

The thing I love the best about that example is that we can all see that we don't have enough information to judge. If I pushed for an answer I'm sure we could give one, and have pretty good reasons why we picked one guy over the other, but realistically as humans we just can't tell. No one made it to New York so it doesn't matter if one guy dies, to my way of thinking.

Now if the argument is--if you believe your wrong actions are right actions you are in more danger because you won't repent them--that's a little different matter. I can see that. On the other, I think we all have sin in our lives that we are unaware of. Even if its just a wrong idea about who we are. Many a passive man thinks he's a good Christian even though he's abusive to his family through inaction. Is that a sin that leads unto death because he doesn't know to feel bad about it?

I think a number of Christians think they are doing the world a disservice if they don't stand against homosexuality because homosexuals claim that their actions aren't wrong. Every person I've ever known who recovered from same sex attraction said that they knew all along it was wrong, even if it was just a tiny voice inside. Setting that aside I think the first sin to eliminate from your life is the sin the Holy Spirit brings to your attention. We might be shocked to find out the number of sins the Holy Spirit chooses to work on ahead of homosexuality.

I challenge the notion that we are helping anyone by actively fighting homosexuality. Again, I'm not in favor of it. I don't approve of it. I just want to point out that as Christians we need to spend a lot more time and energy pronouncing what is really true about someone, and less energy and time addressing the things we think they do wrong. The power of life and death are in the tongue. If we speak to the Spirit in someone we will call that out and the flesh will fall away. If we speak to the flesh in them only bad things happen.

A. R. Bunch

On the topic of politics again

Below is a post I made to a Wild at Heart yahoo group forum. I thought I'd post it here as well as it gives a good insight into Christianity and politics. I do want to add to it a link to an article by MorningStar ministries that says very similar things regarding revival.
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Well that is a certainly a great post to get things heated up on this forum. Good Job Brian.

I have so many comments to make from so many angles I don't quite know where to begin.

I'll begin with W. Brian Thorton's statement "...However, I believe that dependence on the government and the welfare
state we now live in is nothing short of a spiritual curse. God is no
longer our provider. Since government is our provider, we don't need
God anymore. So, for nearly 80 years He (God) has gradually been
removed from our public lives."

What a great insight, and undoubtedly true. God loves to tell me things, which--if I repeated them--people would think I'm crazy. He once explained to me that a spirit of brotherly strife once lived in Africa. Village conquered their neighbors and sold them as slaves. With these slaves came civil strife which lead to civil war here in America. The reason this spirits power didn't erode in the American south until Dr. King was that no one had ever fought it on both a political and spiritual front before.

Sounds kinda crazy to me but it also makes sense. At the same time I think it might be a stretch to blame the California fires on gay marriage. While we as humans can look at gay marriage and see an indicator of the moral temperature of a culture is that how God sees it? God knows every sin in every heart. Is he more upset that a person choses to have sex with a person of the same sex, or if that person tries to marry a person of the same sex? Aren't we committing adultery when we lust after a married woman? Does that anger God more or less than wanting to have sex with someone of the same sex? These are strictly rhetorical questions.

Reading the bible, I don't get the feeling God is happy about homosexuality, but aren't all sins equal? As Christians we get so caught up in disapproving of one sin over another. When Jesus interceded on behalf of the prostitute, he asked, "where are your accusers?" Only Jesus was without sin so only Jesus was in a place to accuse her, and he didn't. That's an example we need to study.

I'm always surprised by the way modern evangelicals (whom I often criticize though I count myself among them) discount and ignore the entire old testament unless the subject is homosexuality. Brian I know as an Adventist you probably don't count yourself an evangelical Christian or someone who ignores the old testament, but we'll come back to that.

I've written here before regarding Sodom and Gomorrah, (Genesis 18:16 on) but I'll go back to it for the new kids. I find it telling that God decides not to send the destroying Angels straight to work, but comes to earth with them and walks past Abraham's tent. So God chose to consult a human, or at least provide an opportunity for comment, before destroying the cities. God also let himself be talked down to 10 righteous people. We always blame Abraham for stopping there, but I think he is only guilty of having too much faith in his relative Lot. Surely Lot and his family had at least ten righteous among them. Even though Abraham stops at that point, God still makes a way of escape for the righteous who are there.

So if we look for just a moment beyond the whole gay thing we see a few more things that God was up to. It was an opportunity for relationship with Abraham. It was a way to move Lot out of a bad situation he'd become too comfortable with.

I also want to point out the footnote in the NIV version that says "spare them" is actually also interpretable as "forgive them." To my mind that could read, "26 The LORD said, "If I find fifty righteous people in the city of Sodom, I will forgive the whole place for their sake." That sounds crazy. Am I saying that if we were to intercede for the gays God would forgive them? The only thing God says about why He's telling Abraham is that he intends to make a great nation of him and bless all nations through it. So is God training Abraham to intercede? I think so. There is also a reference to Ez. 16:49 "Now this was the sin
of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and
unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy." So while God never tells Abraham the exact sin Sodom is guilty of we assume its homosexuality because that's what's up when the men check it out. But the only time anyone says what the "outcry" was its that they didn't share there blessings.

This all leads me to believe that the bible doesn't actually indicate that God has a special hatred of homosexuality, which causes Him to punish entire regions.

My point in all this is that we as men of God need to be standing in our place in the battle. We need to be men of God, whom God blesses the wicked through. I think that's the lesson of Sodom and Gomorrah. Those of us who are circumcised of the heart are spiritually the sons of Abraham and we are anointed to be conduit of blessing to the world. Not a conduit of judgment and condemnation.

This point dovetails into my next comment.

Politically speaking we Christians have invited much of the hatred that is thrown against us. When I think of men like L. Ron Hubburd, the founder of Scientology, his father was a minister. So was James Hetfeild of Metalica. What about all the young boys that were molested by priests and ministers? What about the people who are sitting down to family dinner and the doorbell rings--its another Christian trying to cram God down their throat like it was Amway. I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of times a Christian has told me, "you either believe X, or you are going to hell." Don't we realize that it sounds like, "you either believe what I believe or you can go to hell?"

But whether we engage in some horrible abuse toward non-Christians or not we are all guilty of misrepresenting Christ. This is the scary aspect of what John Eldredge is teaching. Christian nice guys have are not what the world needs. I'm not saying this from a place of self recrimination but from a place of hope. The marred image of masculinity in our nation is not the result of Christian men living in the image of Christ. Its not because we didn't give enough tracts out, or communicate our disapproval enough. It's because we haven't let love be our identifying banner. We haven't gone the extra mile when carrying our neighbors burden. We haven't gone the first mile in many instances. We have not shared our blessings, and in that we are more like the residents of Sodom than we would like to admit.

A. R. Bunch

Laughter and Marriage

"A merry heart does good, like medicine; but a broken spirit dries the
bones." (Proverbs 17:22NKJV)
Humor is one of the most important elements of a good marriage. It actually
begins when we meet and start dating. It is a crucial building block of the
relationship. Without it, we rarely find someone attractive or desire to be
with them. With it, we become friends who enjoy being with each other. Laughter
lights up our hearts with hope, trust and goodwill.
For most people, a sense of humor is one of the most important qualities they
desire in a spouse. When a marriage is good, we laugh and have fun. It
doesn't mean we aren't having challenges in other areas of the relationship. It
just means that in spite of our problems, we haven't lost our ability to see
the bigger picture and trust God.
When Crystal and I first met, we loved being together and we laughed a lot.
Both of us have a good sense of humor and it has always been an important
part of our relationship. Even after 6 years of marriage, we still laugh as much
as we always have. Crystal is the funniest and most entertaining person I
know. She keeps me from getting too serious, well, at least most of the time.
The only time in our marriage when we weren't laughing is when we were having
serious problems right after we got married. The more serious our problems
got, the more we fought and the less we laughed. The entire spirit of our home
changed. After the Lord began healing our marriage I remember the first time
we started laughing and joking again. I didn't realize how long it had been
or how important it was until it was reborn in our relationship.
My advice to every spouse and couple is to understand the importance of
laughter and having fun together. As Proverbs says, it is like medicine, but when
it stops your spirit dries up. Here are some of the enemies of humor that
you must watch out for:
* Negative thinking and talking
* Unforgiveness and bitterness
* Sarcasm and humor that wounds each other
* Working too much and ignoring your marriage
* Taking yourselves too seriously
* Not trusting in God; Doubt; Worry; Unbelief
I encourage you to work at having fun. I know that may seem like a
contradiction but it isn't. If humor and having a good time is no longer a regular
feature in your marriage you have to purpose to make it happen. It might be that
your relationship has become mundane and boring and you don't desire to be
with each other the way you once did.
There is nothing wrong with you that a little Godly fun can't cure.
Remember, it's like medicine. Just like when you were dating, find something to do
that you both enjoy and do it regularly. Make it a discipline for the sake of
your marriage. You'll find that in the midst of laughing together the world
looks much better and the wounds of life heal much faster.
Blessings,
John

How do we Compare?

Is There a Difference Between NT Believers and Modern Christians

Here's a great question posed by a friend.

What does the re-awakened man now living in his created purpose look like to you? How does that compare to the godly man of the NT?


That's a great question.

I think they look strikingly similar. I don't see any difference in the way people sin now than in their day and certainly the image of God hasn't changed. Actually Christ was the first Spirit filled man, at least I believe that he set his divinity aside and did everything in the power of the Holy Spirit, so all healings and miracles He did we could also. In His own words, all that and more.

There are two giant distinctions between Christ and anyone who came after. 1) Christ was perfect and we will forever be dependent on him for salvation. 2) Christ's mission included sacrifice for all mankind and ours is scaled back from that considerably.

I think we get caught up in strange ideas about Christ, and the entire trinity, and we loose focus on what we are to be about. For one thing we forget the Christ didn't dress up to talk to people. He didn't try to have 5,000 people follow Him, he was just here for a handful of intimate relationships, who in turn would effect the rest of the world. In other words his death was for all of us but his living ministry was mainly about those who walked intimately with Him. He blessed everyone around him who had needs because that was his nature, but that wasn't the focus of his ministry. He merely lived in the image of his father through relationship, and as example to his close friends through relationship.

When we follow that example and concentrate first on who we are in Christ, which is what God always intended for us, and second on what it means to have Christ in us, which is to walk in restoration and healing especially in the context of our intimate friendships. If we do that we will bless everyone we come in contact with and in fact we will heal people we don't contact directly through their relationship with people we know and love.

Much of Christianity today focuses on the life improvements that come from Godly living and fail to acknowledge the need for deep personal relationships, which is where ministry is really effective. Institutional Christianity doesn't preclude close friendships but it doesn't require them either. When we try to bless people or set them free through an institution we often breed dependence. It's not completely ineffective, but it could be better.

So I'd say the biggest difference between the new testament man and modern re-awakened man is that most men these days work institutionally and not relationally.

A. R. Bunch

Another response to an online forum post.

Yep there is an interesting paradox at work here and Paul does a good job of getting at it.

I think this is the big difference between what I promote and the prosperity preachers everyone is so angry with.

I do acknowledge that we need to be aware of the blackness of our deeds before coming to Christ and how far we fall short of perfect with our best efforts. It is possible to become so wrapped up in the Grace of God that we take it for granted. There is an overwhelming joy at being released from our sins and those who are released from more and worse are all the more joyous. Also the suffering of Christ on our behalf is a beautiful testament to the Love God has for us. He didn't "just get over it" he paid for it out of his own blood and suffering. All this is true and important.

I tend to focus on the opposite problem because that's the one I see more often in modern Christianity. We get so wrapped up in our own failings that we forget to embrace the freedom Christ died to provide. The degree to which we hate ourselves is the degree to which we can't embrace the love of Christ.

Our God is so big that we live in a constant state of paradox. We are prisoners set free who choose to become slaves to God, which is the only way to remain free. We serve in order to lead, we must die in order to truly live. We must hate our lives to come to Christ who died to give us life abundant. We grow more Christ-like everyday even as we rot inside our physical bodies. We don't ever have to sin again and yet we know we will--still there is grace.

You can't feed this religion into a computer and make any sense of it, but when God speaks it all makes perfect sense. We can't confuse unworthiness with being worthless. What man or woman is truly worthy of the love your spouse gives you, much less God? Do we really deserve to receive gifts at Christmas or our birthdays? These things are given because to the person who gave them you are worth it. So while we are completely unworthy of salvation, especially at the cost of God's only son, because God provided salvation at the cost of his son that says we are worth it.

So we have to be careful not to engage in unbelief. Not the kind of unbelief that says there is no God, but the kind that says my sins are so black Christ didn't really die for all of them. We have to accept that we are loved beyond comprehension in order to fully embrace salvation. Its not enough to say God restored me to Him because he is good, we must believe that God wanted to do it because He loves us. When God feels his love radiating back at him its not complete without you, specifically you.

It's amazing how hard it is to say that though and not get called a prosperity preacher. Well so be it.

A. R. Bunch

Grace and Same Sex Attraction

I wrote this in response to a emailed question about Same Sex Attraction in Christians.

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I separate believers and non-believers when it comes to SSA, but of course its a journey. I believe homosexuality is a sin like any other sin. Christianity as a religion has done itself a disservice and totally misrepresented God's heart by setting homosexuality in a category of "super sins" which are extra abhorrent. I know you are asking specifically about lust but I'm setting up the background for my answer.

We spend too much time as churches, disapproving of the world in order to set ourselves apart, and very little spot-light is shown on growing as Christians ourselves. Christians are directed to look at the fruits in each other before accepting that someone is actually from Christ. We are to live closely together and grow as iron sharpens iron. I believe Christians are to be helping each other past things. I don't see anything that tells me I'm to pick on non-believers and show them my disgust at how they live. There is nothing edifying in that.

So when someone walks in the door of a church at an early stage of returning to Christ and they struggle with same sex attraction, it shouldn't be any different than if they were an alcoholic, or wife-beater, or pedophile. For that matter it shouldn't be any different than if they have one of the "acceptable sins" for Christians like neglecting your children, verbally berating your spouse, dishonoring your parents, pride, etc. It's no different than the sins Christians tolerate because they aren't very obvious like masturbation, envy, greed, or gluttony.

Same sex attraction is just a sin. It will fall away naturally as someone draws close to Christ. The things we must be weary of are the "Gateway Sins," the ones that we tolerate because we still kinda like them, or we don't know life without them, or we fear life without them. I think the big one these days is phariseeism. But pride, unbelief, and idolatry are core three. If we put our trust, fear, or hope in anything other than Christ we will fall prey to all the other sins. If we doubt that God can or will come through for us we will fall prey to the other sins.

So again the answer is "no," there is no difference between lusting after a man or lusting after a woman. The core desire of our hearts includes the desire to live in intimacy with men and women, our brothers and sisters in Christ, and if things wound our ability to experience that we are drawn to counterfeit ways of getting our needs met. True intimacy requires something of us, like trust, where lust requires nothing from us.

The best environment to deal with Same Sex Attraction in is a group of Godly men who will hold you accountable. If you are able to express your struggles and be accepted anyway you will begin to heal. The religion I grew up in constantly set themselves apart from the world by any manufactured means they could come up with. Instead of communicating God's love they came off as elitist.

One quick word about accountability though. Clearly I'm not talking about the kind of accountability that focuses on what you are doing or thinking, but the kind that focuses on where you're at. What you are suffering from is not as important as whether you are transparent about it. As long as our concern is intimacy with God we will do anything that will help including inviting our brothers into it. Conversely, if we make it about the problem then we are best served by hiding the problem and causing our brothers to feel like they need to go searching for the problem. While some friends will be able to give more targeted advice the truth is that anyone will do as a confessor as long as they can extend you grace.

For this reason Christianity has given those struggling with certain sins, especially homosexuality, nowhere to go to get better.

A. R. Bunch